


<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:26:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It just gave you all the science, which is absolutely fascinating. That is genuinely interesting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:26:15] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> It probably isn&#8217;t perfect, and it definitely can be subjective, like maybe I&#8217;m going for Lo-Fi House instead of Big Room House. But I gave it that information where I said, here&#8217;s the genre, make me sound like these other artists. And so it said, well, here&#8217;s sort of how to help guide you closer to their sound.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:26:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> The interesting thing there, I think, is it gave you a new rabbit hole that should you wish to explore, you just got it prized open. And you wouldn&#8217;t have known what any of that was. And so you could probably map that into a million different scenarios, you know, music, art, whatever may be. And it will just give you something back and you&#8217;ll be, oh, there&#8217;s that universe of stuff to get interested in. You know, the headroom of the dbs and all of that kind of, I mean it means nothing to me, but I kind of grasped that there&#8217;s a thing there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Do you know, you said something really interesting earlier and it probably just slipped out of your mouth and you didn&#8217;t notice how interesting or profound it was. You said it wasn&#8217;t the point. And you were talking about making music and using AI for that isn&#8217;t the point. I think that&#8217;s going to become the metric of so much in the future. What&#8217;s the point of that thing?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So as an example, if I want to go and see a band, I do not want to watch a video of a band where I have a suspicion that there was an AI involved and it created this video and the music. The point is I want to go and see a bunch of human beings who I know have struggled with their art and their discipline and, you know, failure and moderate success and all of that kind of stuff. I want to know that there was that soul searching going on in that musical arena.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But curiously, when I go to a SaaS app, the point is, does it work? It&#8217;s really simple. Does it work? And do I care too much about how the functioning of it was achieved? Not really. The point is, does it work? And maybe we&#8217;ll be asking ourselves that question more. What is the point of the thing I&#8217;m about to do? Does it matter to me if AI was involved? On closer examination, yes it does. I&#8217;m going to avoid that thing. Or, no, it doesn&#8217;t. That&#8217;s fine. I&#8217;ll embrace that thing. It really landed with me what you said there. So that&#8217;s kind of curious. I wonder if I&#8217;ll start doing that more in my own life, examining the point of it. Is it a human enterprise, something extremely human and only for humans, or is it somewhere else on that spectrum? Yeah, interesting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:28:32] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> An example just came to mind, which of course has now just gone out of my mind because I started thinking about six other things. But like I read a couple of graphic novels. That&#8217;s what it was, memes. I read a couple of graphic novels and some of it is, I read for the artistry. Some of it I read for the stories. There&#8217;s graphic novels where I actually really don&#8217;t like the artwork, but I like the storytelling. How would I feel about the art being generated by AI? Because the person who was writing the story couldn&#8217;t draw, but could tell a good story.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Or the example that had come to mind were memes, or funny photos, right? I&#8217;m not a meme person. I generally don&#8217;t repost animated gifs, or can haz cheeseburger, or any of that stuff. Some of it&#8217;s cute or whatever, and I&#8217;m not against it, but it doesn&#8217;t tickle my sense of humor, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But lately, I&#8217;ve long been proficient in Photoshop because like we said, I started in 97 when you were designing websites in Photoshop or whatever. And so for a long time, like I would say, so here&#8217;s a good example. One of my big clients is Seattle Magazine. And so we were doing, I don&#8217;t remember, there was some reference of Sasquatch, creatures that are most active in the Pacific Northwest, often around the Seattle area. They are real, by the way.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But the joke was that our editor was writing his letter or something. And so I, quick, ran over to AI and said, here&#8217;s the picture of Bigfoot that everybody knows, walking across the stream bed or whatever. Here&#8217;s headshots of my editor. Put my editor in this photo. And it generated a photo of Jonathan as Sasquatch, like walking across the river. And it made us all laugh. And I think we did end up putting it in the magazine. I don&#8217;t remember.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would have done the same thing in Photoshop, much less effectively. Even 10 years before, I would&#8217;ve grabbed a copy of the original photo and done my best to Photoshop Jonathan into the photo, maybe he&#8217;s hiding behind a bush or something. I couldn&#8217;t actually change his body to be walking in that pose. Now I can.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Is the effect the same? And again, we&#8217;re not talking about the negatives, or obvious negatives, about image generation of other people. Used in a harmless, funny way or day to day. Like, another good example. So on the Mexican Train website, one of the things that I wanted when I created mexicantrain.online was, again, this was about people connecting. This was my COVID project. And so I, a couple of years before, I&#8217;m chatting with a buddy online, I was joking about how I was eating Cheez-its, which we like never have in the house and how Cheez-its are just the best thing in the world, and they&#8217;re dangerous to have in the house. And a week later, a box of like 50 packs of Cheez-its arrived because he had shipped it to me as a joke.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So I took a picture of me like looking absolutely exalted, elated, holding up Cheez-its. Oh my God, Cheez-its, right? And that&#8217;s what I put on the Mexican Train website as a like, hey, I&#8217;m Corey, I built this thing, because it was a very relatable photo. A funny little side story is that still, five years later, a lot of people who play Mexican Train daily or weekly using my website buy Cheez-its, or buy Cheez-its for each other as prizes and things like that. Like, it all became an inside joke.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In building the new version, I wanted a new homepage. But that photo, I&#8217;ve actually lost the original file of it, and I only have a low res version. So I uploaded that into Gemini. I&#8217;m also more bald and my beard is longer. And so I uploaded the original photo and then a couple of photos of me more recently and said, hey, Gemini, using Nano Banana, create a new version of this. And also, like the original photo is very zoomed in. You could really just see my face. And so I was like, I want head and shoulders. And it did a beautiful job. Fixed the lighting. It looks almost a little too polished, frankly. And my wife looks at it and she&#8217;s like, I don&#8217;t know why, but I can tell that&#8217;s AI generated, like I can tell that&#8217;s not you. But to anybody else, it&#8217;s certainly close enough. I look at it and I&#8217;m like, it&#8217;s me but I&#8217;ve been photoshopped a little or, you know, it&#8217;s been cleaned up or something. But it&#8217;s close enough. But it&#8217;s a better photo that still conveys the same message, but it works better on the page, I think. But it&#8217;s not authentic, air quotes.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:32:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that whole authenticity thing is going to be, well, I guess it&#8217;s going to be a question for everybody going forward, certainly in, you know, you can imagine politics and things like that. Just judging whether or not the politician that&#8217;s on your screen at the moment is in fact doing that thing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:12] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> That&#8217;s the terrifying part is, what&#8217;s real anymore?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There&#8217;s no doubt that we are going to have to kind of work that through.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When you are using your AI, and we will get onto your client bits in a minute. When you are using the AI, on what level do you feel that you are in some kind of relationship with it? That&#8217;s a very ephemeral question. But, do you view it as, so you described that a year ago it was less good. So in human terms you might say, okay, it&#8217;s more childlike or something like that. You know, it&#8217;s a smaller version of a human being. It&#8217;s less mature and what have you. Now it&#8217;s grown up, for want of a better word. It&#8217;s a little bit older perhaps, or more mature or whatever it may be. Do you think about it in any human terms?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:48] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Oh, absolutely.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Isn&#8217;t that fascinating.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:49] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> So what&#8217;s funny is, we&#8217;ve had a few of these conversations lately. My neighbors have Alexa in their house and they changed it to respond to computer, and they will only refer to it as, it. They did not want it to be humanised dogmatically. Like, it&#8217;s important to them that this is not a companion, a creature, a whatever, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I don&#8217;t care that much, and in fact, I enjoy playing with language. And I don&#8217;t see, the current state of how we&#8217;re interacting with our technology, I don&#8217;t have a problem with humanising it, or at least using certain pronouns and things like that.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And that&#8217;s why I say that specifically, Claude is a, he, it&#8217;s a male name, male, Western English name, right? Or if nothing else, I&#8217;ve never met or heard of a woman named Claude. Claude has always been a he. But one of the funny things that happened working with my buddy Robert, is he, like I said, he introduced Copilot to do code reviews and we&#8217;re chatting, he&#8217;s one of my, the buddies that I have where, you know, we chat online all day, every day, ongoing conversation. And he just started saying she about Copilot. And I did too. I did notice it, but I&#8217;m like, I have no objection, reaction to this. I see no harm in it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I have no idea if we&#8217;re going to take this conversation way too far. The Octocat, that is the mascot of GitHub. I don&#8217;t know if the Octocat has a gender or pronouns or what have you. If you&#8217;re going to think of Copilot as some version of the Octocat, like I don&#8217;t, how you might get there, even subconsciously, right? But like just using Copilot, Robert started saying she, so I started saying she. And then he actually said after, Robert, after a couple of days was like, you know, by the way, I don&#8217;t know if you noticed, but I&#8217;d started saying she for Copilot. For some reason I got a, call it a feminine energy off of her. And I was like, yeah, I noticed. I could maybe pick up, perceive that too, if I&#8217;m going to overanalyse it. I mean it so doesn&#8217;t matter.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So now Copilot is she and Claude is he. I&#8217;ve never thought to ask Copilot if they have preferred pronouns, which I guess would then actually get it into that like real world and societal conversations and philosophical, not to say that a gender discussion is philosophical but, you know what I mean? Like, actual consequences of real world issues, let&#8217;s call it that.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:36:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is so interesting that a lot of things, the sort of anthropomorphic nature of it, so we&#8217;re trying to build robots at the minute, and in many cases we&#8217;re trying to build a version of a human being. You know, it&#8217;s got legs and arms and clearly in many cases that is the least plausible design for the thing it&#8217;s trying to achieve. But we have this notion that, well, if we get a human being out of robots, that&#8217;s going to be great. It will be able to do all the things that we can do.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But equally, on some level, we&#8217;re trying to get it to approximate human intelligence, human creativity, and things like that. And that kind of leads me to this one final thing before we talk about your clients, and that is, at what point do we start learning from it?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:36:43] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Aren&#8217;t we already? You&#8217;re constantly asking questions.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:36:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, that was exactly the question. Yeah, so it would appear that in the case of code, at least anyway, you know, you ask it to do a particular thing and it will come up with this, I mean you could ignore what it&#8217;s done and just play the output and interact with what it has achieved. But if you were to delve into the code, I suspect there is quite a lot of head scratching and looking at things and going, gosh, that&#8217;s interesting. Why has it done it that way? That&#8217;s curious. Oh, I should be doing it that way.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:37:08] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Is it better than me, versus is it better than everybody? We don&#8217;t have a way to determine that. And that&#8217;s why I brought up the science stuff earlier. I&#8217;m like, okay, so if a bunch of scientists, let&#8217;s just be vague here, are in a laboratory, or in a think tank and are working together, but they&#8217;re also feeding everything that they&#8217;re thinking into an AI who is also thinking, at what point if, somebody comes up with a brand new concept or a new way to approach a medical issue or something like that, you&#8217;re like, oh, that&#8217;s amazing. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s been done before. What happens when that&#8217;s Claude or ChatGPT?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Presumably, in that specific instance, like the same process of like, oh, that&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t think any of us have thought of that before, let&#8217;s go do some experiments to see if that actually works, kind of thing. What if it&#8217;s well beyond our comprehension? What if it&#8217;s, there&#8217;s a conclusion, words that are typed on a screen that are so far beyond anything that we&#8217;re doing? You think of Einstein or you think of these scientists who have done stuff that, you know, or even, I mean you could be as vague as like painters who died in poverty and obscurity, but we revere them today. Vincent Van Gogh of course comes to mind.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:38:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of curious because obviously each one of us is a little entity and we&#8217;re constrained by our biology. You know, we&#8217;ve got this finite capacity in our brain. You have a finite time span on earth so, you know, for much of that time, you are just basically a recipient of knowledge, if you like? You&#8217;re this sponge, which is sucking things in. And then for a period of time you&#8217;ll be able to regurgitate it. You know, if you have an accident, your capacity will be diminished. If you&#8217;re knocked on the head or something like that. But you&#8217;re bound in time and you are bound in capacity because of the size of the neural network that you&#8217;ve got in your head.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And yet we&#8217;re now being confronted with this other thing, which can do things remarkably quickly, can have the entire corpus of more or less everything at its disposal at a moment&#8217;s notice. And it can, this version of the entity over there, inside that other box is exactly the same as this one over here. You know, they&#8217;re kind of replicas of each other. And then if you put those two together, they can do things in symbiosis at twice the speed than, basically they&#8217;ve got this whole load of stuff going on that we can&#8217;t hope to manage.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And it&#8217;ll be so interesting being in relation with that, and how we start to learn from it because, when was the last time you actually went to a book or went to a human teacher in your adult life to learn something? You just sort of go to Google, don&#8217;t you? And you&#8217;ve trusted on a computer to serve up the information for you for a long time. We&#8217;ve now got a new route to that information. I wasn&#8217;t really going anywhere with that. It was more of a sort of thought process. Yeah, interesting. Okay, let&#8217;s move to your client then.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You did allude to this a little while ago, and it sounded like, certainly for the one client that you&#8217;ve got, there&#8217;s no obstacle here. You are just building the stuff. The client is entirely happy. I presume you are taking on the responsibility if the things that you produce with the AI kind of backfires or something is not working correctly. Is that your estimation of sort of the future into 2026, 2027, that the clients basically don&#8217;t care?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And if that&#8217;s the case, does it allow you to be more profitable because you are spending less time? Or more effective because you can do more complicated things? Or, do you sense that maybe we&#8217;re going to hit a point in the years that come where the clients start to, well, rebel is the wrong word, but you know what I mean, their expectations will be, well, it&#8217;s no longer, well, I know that Corey&#8217;s using AI, so my expectation&#8217;s going to go up in terms of his output, but also my expectation of his fee is going to go down as well? So there&#8217;s a lot in that question, but unpack bits however you choose.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:40:47] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> So answering part 2.6b first.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:40:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that&#8217;s helpful.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:40:52] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> The story is, I had a client who had software built, it didn&#8217;t work out. But that meant that, largely her budget had been spent and so she was left with software that was, didn&#8217;t do everything she needed it to and, or at least there was not a lot of budget leftover for, because it&#8217;s, when the rubber hits the road kind of thing. Going, oh wait, we didn&#8217;t think of this. Now that we&#8217;re actually using it every day, we need it to do this and this instead of this and this. You design in a bubble and then you actually need to use the thing. And there just wasn&#8217;t budget left over.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so when we started talking, she&#8217;s like, I need these few things fixed. I looked at it and was like, I can&#8217;t really maintain this. We really want to, I mean typical, this is going to sound like every developer is like, I have to build it from scratch my way. But in some sense, at least in order for me to maintain it, it needed to be rebuilt my way. But we kept looking at, what would that cost? And she&#8217;s like, I&#8217;ve already spent my budget and so we&#8217;re waiting for new clients to come in or lightning to strike so that Corey can do this.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">AI happened to be that lightning. And I went back to her and I said, I think we&#8217;re to the point now, this was just a couple months ago, that I can build it for probably half based on hours. Because we&#8217;re still, at least at the moment, going, okay, we&#8217;re charging X dollars per hour of Corey&#8217;s time which isn&#8217;t, has never been, or at least for a long, long time, has not been just me typing characters into an IDE, right? A code editor. You&#8217;re paying for Corey&#8217;s experience, you&#8217;re paying for Corey&#8217;s planning, you&#8217;re paying for conversations that we&#8217;re having in order to come to certain conclusions to figure out the software we&#8217;re going to build, blah, blah, blah.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So thinking of it in that same context, it&#8217;s not just about me typing. And so now it&#8217;s not about me typing at all. And in fact, I&#8217;ve had friends now, and I&#8217;ve read this too where the sentiment, or a sentiment, of developers now is we are project managers. We are product designers, or acting as the client in classic agile project management style. We are code reviewers because we&#8217;re not, why should we take the time to write the code anymore? And again, this is why, part of why we introduced Copilot, because it&#8217;s like, oh, then if we can also not do that part of it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Humans are valuable. That was something that you inadvertently alluded to earlier, is that we are still currently, we think we&#8217;re steering the ship, telling AI what to do and controlling how we&#8217;re using it and stuff like that, but like we make mistakes just as much as AI does. We aren&#8217;t the stop gap we often think we are, because we often make mistakes, or we don&#8217;t know what we don&#8217;t know, like you said a minute ago about just googling everything and that kind of thing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So anyway, talked to the client, said, look I think we can build this for half the price. I&#8217;m willing to take the risk if you are. I&#8217;m very upfront about like, we&#8217;re building this with AI, which is part of why we can do this. And she said, great, let&#8217;s do it. And so it&#8217;s been a slightly different experience. We still had to have the conversations about what the product looks like, what it does, and stuff like that. But I was in fact able to get it going a lot faster than I would have before. And because this is client work, I&#8217;m checking it a lot more diligently. Because again, like you said, there&#8217;s liability, or at least I&#8217;m going to be the one that has to fix it, so I need to make sure that it&#8217;s written in a language that I understand, and it&#8217;s laid out in a way that I understand.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And I was a little more opinionated because I want to make sure that files are in certain folders, which nobody, as we said at the beginning of the call, nobody cares about. Like, as long as the software works, nobody cares where the files are. But we&#8217;ve, over 30 years of development, we&#8217;ve developed certain patterns that just make it easier. So why shouldn&#8217;t we take the time to make it easier? And especially since I don&#8217;t have to do the work, I can say, hey, Claude, you put this file over here, put it over here instead. And Claude goes, sure. Why not? I don&#8217;t care.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:44:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I guess if we ever get to the point where the AI is literally doing everything, then all of that would go out the window, wouldn&#8217;t it? You wouldn&#8217;t ever need to care where that file was, so long as the AI had a hand in knowing where that was, and it could retrieve that information and modify things as it was. But it feels like we&#8217;re certainly still in that human diagnosis phase, where you need it to look a certain way. I&#8217;m doing air quotes again, the sort of old fashioned way, you know what I mean? The way you&#8217;ve always done it, so that when it puts something out, you, yourself can look at it and go, okay, this is comprehensible to me. I can understand and see if there&#8217;s been errors. But I would imagine it&#8217;s not going to be long until that moment has passed.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:45:23] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> With the new version of Mexican Train, treating it kind of like I talked about Timerdoro early on, I&#8217;m caring a lot less, and I&#8217;m forcing myself to care a lot less. I&#8217;ve got a working version, this is an online game that is important to people, and it&#8217;s not that it&#8217;s not important to me, but I am comfortable with taking a little more risk. And so I am letting it more freely do what it wants.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What&#8217;s interesting is we are not to the point yet where, as you said, this box is the identical to this box. So I am finding that on certain days it&#8217;ll go, well, I&#8217;ll put the file here, and on other days it&#8217;ll say, put the file here. It doesn&#8217;t matter, right? At least with that example, it doesn&#8217;t matter. You want it to write performant code, so you want it to make choices where things like performance matter, but whether a file is in one directory or another does not have real impact on the performance of the game.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But comprehension down the road, because this is where we overlap with humans. You&#8217;re like, okay, so Claude tomorrow needs to understand where things are. It still makes more sense to have a logical file structure so that Claude tomorrow can go, oh, it looks like all of these types of files are in this directory. And so we end up coming to some of the same conclusions that 30 years of human development has decided are the better patterns.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:46:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Yeah, that&#8217;s kind of interesting. I mean, I guess it was ultimately because it&#8217;s creating its own, I don&#8217;t know, it&#8217;s next word based upon the whole corpus of the human word written down on the internet. It&#8217;s probably going to make, draw some broadly similar conclusions.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It sounds, from what you just said, you used the word like half, I think a minute ago when you were talking about maybe the budget or the time available. Sounds like you were at roughly 0.5, half of whatever the commodity was, budget or time or what have you. Is that roughly where you think you are at the moment compared to pre AI in terms of efficiency? And do you see that efficiency, again, time or money, whatever it may be, do you see that dynamic changing so that you eventually get to, I don&#8217;t know, 0.4, 0.3, 0.1 of the amount of time that you would&#8217;ve done? And do you have an expectation that, at the time that you are doing 0.1 of the work for the same outcome, that you&#8217;ll get 1.0 of the salary that you got? Or will you have to do, you know, the other 0.9 on other jobs?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:47:43] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> There&#8217;s a reason why developers really like starting new projects or rewriting them from scratch, right? Clean slate. And I think that that work, where you are in total control, in an empty directory, all technology at your fingertips, I see that quickly speeding up. I&#8217;ll tell you, one of the biggest hacks, I should have said this way up front, like the best value, because I&#8217;m finding a lot of people don&#8217;t know this, is screenshots will save you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Claude Code does not, there are ways around this, but largely Claude Code or other AIs do not know what things look like in the browser. So taking screenshots, dropping them in, you can now say, look, the columns are misaligned or whatever. But also, even text, like I am just constantly taking screenshots and throwing them in to Claude, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So part of what I&#8217;m doing right now, I know there&#8217;s a better way to do this, but I haven&#8217;t stopped to figure it out yet, is, Copilot reviews the code and then spits out a bunch of comments, right? I am taking screenshots of each one of those comments and dropping it back into Claude and saying, here&#8217;s what Copilot said, fix it. But I don&#8217;t even really have to type any words because Claude just reads the words that are in the screenshot. So it takes me three seconds to take a screenshot, drop it into Claude, and then Claude goes, oh, it looks like Copilot said we should do this instead, that makes sense. Or even has come back and said, well, Copilot doesn&#8217;t understand the bigger context, so I&#8217;ll push back on this kind of thing, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But I&#8217;m still copying, I&#8217;m still taking screenshots and pasting. There&#8217;s got to be a way, I fully intend to do this soon, to figure out how to have Claude just read those comments and so the two of them can work together. So I shouldn&#8217;t be involved until there&#8217;s, I want a system that comes back and says, Claude did all, made all these changes, Copilot made all these comments, Claude is cool with these and not with these. Overall, we&#8217;re good to go.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:49:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;d be so interesting to set the two agents against each other, I don&#8217;t know, at bedtime on one evening, and to wake up in the morning and see quite how they&#8217;ve got along, if you know what I mean? You know, has it been this entirely, because obviously it&#8217;s built upon the corpus of human knowledge, it&#8217;d be interesting to see if it&#8217;s been this entirely productive experience, or if there has been some element of humanity creeping into that conversation where, you know, one of them throws their toys out the trolley halfway through and things like that. It&#8217;d be absolutely fascinating to see if they, you know, or if one just sort of, I don&#8217;t know, determines that maybe, oh, that AI&#8217;s doing a much better job than I am. I&#8217;m going to slow it down with some.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:50:19] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Or level up or, yeah. So getting back to your question though, right? Nothing is the same as actual humans interacting with something. So if we&#8217;re talking about traditional software that humans are clicking on, and then that&#8217;s my second biggest point right now is, since we&#8217;re supposed to be talking about WordPress, WordPress is all about clicking, right? It&#8217;s all about interface. It&#8217;s all about, you&#8217;re signing into an admin so you think about how visual that is, and then in the admin, you&#8217;ve got this left menu with, here&#8217;s all your options, click, click, click, click. And then the design of the page, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Every client wants the logo to be bigger. And so you can go into AI and say like, oh, where I&#8217;m at right now is, if I&#8217;m building something new, I can use AI, I can generate it if I&#8217;m building software. But trying to essentially retrofit into current existing WordPress sites, we&#8217;ve got all these features that require clicky clicky on buttons, and AI can&#8217;t do that readily or what have you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So I&#8217;m still spending a large part of my day signing into WordPress sites, clicking around actually making changes, reconnecting. When we post a story, it pushes to Facebook and so I&#8217;ve got to actually go in and connect and click through the screens and all that kind of stuff. Which at the end of the day, most of the changes that you&#8217;re making in UI correspond to things being saved in a database. So at some point we&#8217;re going to get to where AI knows, oh, for Beaver Builder, I can make this change, store it in the database in a certain shape, and Beaver Builder will know how to render that on the front end.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m already finding that with ACF, for example, like I have ACF save field groups as JSON, a feature they&#8217;ve had for a decade. But because it&#8217;s in JSON, in text files, AI can read that and then go in and make changes or replicate it sideways because it says, oh, it wants the data to look, have this certain structure so I can create another file and make the data have this certain structure and does a great job. But there are 50,000 plugins. And I&#8217;m not about to let AI go and look at my database willy-nilly to say, oh, Elementor wants the data to be stored this way in the database, let me just start writing things to, you know? And so there&#8217;s still that disconnect right now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:52:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think WordPress is doing a lot of work with things like the Abilities API and things like that to sort of surface what WordPress is capable of. And I would imagine, you know, you mentioned Beaver Builder and Elementor, I&#8217;m imagining that in a future, they&#8217;ll be writing what their capabilities are, and where they&#8217;re storing their information in such a way that the, hopefully anybody with any AI can kind of instruct the AI to do the thing, and it will know what the thing is.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Absolutely fascinating. I&#8217;m so curious because you are doing a whole load of stuff that I&#8217;m just not doing. I was never really an out and out developer, I was kind of dangerous with code. But equally it does seem like folk like me, who are not really experimenting with this too much are getting, well, left behind is maybe one way of describing it, maybe we&#8217;re sort of enjoying it on some level as well. We&#8217;re enjoying watching other people do it, and we get to worry about what the societal impacts will be.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:53:44] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> It&#8217;s points of integration. Electric cars came along and most of us were like, I don&#8217;t want or can&#8217;t buy a Tesla. But then the Prius came out and everybody went, oh, I can buy a Toyota. That&#8217;s probably historically inaccurate. Maybe the Prius came out before Tesla, but you get my point.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The people around me, my neighbors are teachers. One of them has no interest, has no reason to use AI other than like, oh, let me look up a recipe or something. Versus, the other neighbor who really wants to be cutting edge and also thinks that this stuff is really neat. Is constantly trying to figure out, how can I run, generate, bingo cards was the new thing? Have AI figure out how to do these bingo cards for my students, or what have you. And you get into the moral gray area of, who&#8217;s actually writing papers and then who&#8217;s actually grading them? And so basically you&#8217;ve got AI grading papers that were written by AI. And you can get into, like anything, there&#8217;s all these sort of side effects. But, again, trying to keep it upbeat, like there&#8217;s neat things.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:54:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. No, I think we&#8217;ve done a great job of kind of keeping it upbeat. You&#8217;ve just been relentlessly positive about it. You know, it&#8217;s obviously had a profound impact on your life, your capacity to do things. You sound like you&#8217;re infinitely curious about it as well. So it&#8217;s, maybe the life of a developer was something that wouldn&#8217;t have held the same level of excitement for the next decade or more. But this new technology getting injected and shaking everything up a bit, makes it so that you can do things that you might not have ever taken on, because the technical challenges or time might have been too difficult.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:55:12] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Would I want to be a new developer? I don&#8217;t know. Again, I think things are, I&#8217;m trying to describe where I&#8217;m at now, where, again, like WordPress is still very clicky clicky, and that happens to be the majority of the work that I do professionally.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I also think that, like I run a lot of websites for friends and for local nonprofits and stuff like that because there&#8217;s still something to be said for having a website. And the easiest way, so like we have a local, city owned, calling it a ski mountain is generous. You can technically ski on it. Most of the value to the community is there&#8217;s a tubing hill. So you get pulled up the hill in a tube and then you come screaming down the hill at 25 miles an hour. It&#8217;s freaking awesome.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I volunteer there and so when we needed a new website, I said, let me make a new website, right? I don&#8217;t want to be, if I&#8217;m involved in a tubing accident, this is the pointed version of getting hit by a bus, the developer scenario of getting hit by a bus, right? Somebody else needs to be able to step in and maintain that. So the website can&#8217;t, the value of something like WordPress, a CMS software in general for generating websites, right. I can&#8217;t, and even, TMI, but the guy who had the previous website had built it all by hand, and so nobody else could begin to maintain it or make changes to it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so for the new version, I was like, this is literally the best scenario for WordPress because I created the website and then I shot a video of how to update the website. And just a week ago, the head of the board in charge of it got in touch and said, hey, how do we make changes to the website? Do I have to send them to you? And I said, here&#8217;s a video, go give it a try. And if you get stuck, then absolutely contact me. But if there was any sort of running of scripts or FTPing into the server to make changes, or any of that stuff, like it would fall flat. And so you still need, at the moment, you still need clicky clicky.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Shortly, as you said with the new API and stuff, there&#8217;ll be a little chat bot where you&#8217;ll say, look at this website. And the AI will go, oh, it looks like you&#8217;re using Beaver Builder with ACF, and you&#8217;ve got Yoast installed, dah, dah, dah. And then you&#8217;ll say, okay, we need to change the homepage to say the following things. And I think we&#8217;re going to go through, like any of this stuff, we&#8217;re going to go through a phase where it&#8217;s going to absolutely break the website and my phone will ring.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But six months later, it&#8217;ll get better and better and better, and then using certain plugins. And I think, you talk about adoption, I think, if the plugins that lean into making AI be able to use their software well and quickly. So like I&#8217;m a big fan of Beaver Builder. So if Beaver Builder leans into enabling AI to interact with Beaver Builder, right? Then we are going to, just like any of the things in WordPress, there&#8217;s good and there&#8217;s bad, there&#8217;s favorites, there&#8217;s things that break over time. There&#8217;s all that kind of stuff, things that are maintained well and whatnot.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so we&#8217;re going to get to a point where certain stacks are going to work better with AI. And I think site creators like me are going to say, oh, I don&#8217;t want to maintain this website for our local ski hill more than I have to. But instead of them having to go in and click on things and adjust boxes on a screen, I&#8217;m going to use Beaver Builder, but maybe I give up, ACF will never let me down but let&#8217;s, hypothetically, ACF doesn&#8217;t work well with AI, but Meta Box does. So I might say, okay, I&#8217;m going to switch my AI friendly stack to be Beaver Builder with Meta Box, so that they can just go in and type something, it&#8217;ll all sort itself out more reliably. And I think that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re going to see over time.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:58:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think there&#8217;s been so many interesting predictions about what is coming. Most of my predictions have turned out to be just hot air, essentially, because the rate of change is so, so, very fast. But I do like the direction that WordPress is going in, where it&#8217;s being sort of agnostic of the AI, the actual API, for want of a better word. You know, it&#8217;s just going to hopefully be able to bind to any of those. I think that&#8217;s a curious direction, and it kind of leans into that, I guess the philosophy of something like WordPress as well. That it&#8217;s there for everybody and it&#8217;s not there to generate money for a particular company, be it Open AI or Gemini or what have you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We&#8217;ve probably hit the sweet spot in terms of the amount of time that we can give to this. What an interesting discussion though. So far ranging. We ended up with lots of sort of philosophical points, and lifestyle points and all sorts in there. But I think in the end we sort of wrestled it back to WordPress.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So Corey, where can we find you? If somebody&#8217;s interested in sort of having a chat and wants to talk AI, where would you be online?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:59:53] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Sure. Twitter, @coreymaass, is probably the social that I&#8217;m most active on. But also, Post Status, the WordPress community. Always love shouting that out. That&#8217;s been invaluable in my life and career. And then me as a developer, company, gelform.com. G-E-L-F-O-R-M .com. You can email me there if you want to yell at me or praise me or, but privately.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[01:00:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. We will put all of those into the show notes so that anybody that wants to reach Corey can do that. Head to wptavern.com, search for Corey&#8217;s name. It&#8217;s a slightly unusual spelling. The surname, it&#8217;s C-O-R-E-Y, the Corey bit, but Maass is M-A-A-S-S. So search for that and you&#8217;ll be able to find him. Corey, thank you so much for chatting to me today.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[01:00:39] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Thanks Nathan. Always a pleasure.</p>
</div></details>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/coreymaass">Corey Maass</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Corey’s been building for the web since the late nineties, starting out in the early days of Photoshop and tables, learning JavaScript, ASP Classic, and PHP, and eventually falling into the world of WordPress around 2010. Since then, he’s taken on building SaaS apps, managing client projects, and experimenting with a growing number of productivity tools and frameworks. He’s joined us before, and today he’s here to share his perspective on what it’s been like adopting AI into his workflows, especially from the point of view of building projects for clients.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Although AI has dominated headlines over the last couple of years, Corey brings a practical angle to the conversation. He discusses the evolution of his tech stack, and how embracing AI tools like Cursor, Claude Code, and GitHub Copilot have completely changed the way he builds software and manages projects, allowing him to work faster, automate code review, and unlock creativity in places he hadn’t expected.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We hear about how his journey with AI started, how he’s reimagined old projects using new tools, and how learning to interact with these models, sometimes granular, sometimes letting them run freely, has reshaped his daily workflow. Corey describes the shift from using AI just to save time, to using it as a sounding board for inspiration and idea generation, even weaving it into artistic endeavours like music production.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Much of the discussion centres around how these advances have affected client work, with Corey exploring the real-world balance of responsibility, efficiency, and the changing nature of value for developers. Do clients care who, or what, wrote the code, or just that it works? What does authentic creativity mean in an era where prompting and randomness are part of the toolkit?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Whether you’re a developer curious about what ‘working alongside AI’ means ‌or just wondering about the future of tech and WordPress in an increasingly automated world, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://x.com/coreymaass">Corey on X</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://gelform.com">Corey&#8217;s Gelform website</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://cursor.com">Cursor</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://claude.com/product/claude-code">Claude Code</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://github.com/features/copilot">GitHub Copilot</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://timerdoro.com">Timerdoro</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.typingmind.com">TypingMind</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://gemini.google.com/app">Gemini</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://chatgpt.com">ChatGPT</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Corey&#8217;s <a href="https://mexicantrain.online">Mexican Train game</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://indydevdan.com/">IndyDevDan</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://gemini.google/overview/image-generation/">Nano Banana</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://seattlemag.com">Seattle Magazine</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.wpbeaverbuilder.com">Beaver Builder</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://elementor.com">Elementor</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/11/introducing-the-wordpress-abilities-api/">Abilities API</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://yoast.com">Yoast</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/pro/">ACF</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://metabox.io">Meta Box</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 14 Jan 2026 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Matt: Remembering Jesus Ornelas";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151082";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/remembering-jesus-ornelas/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2494:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Today we honored <a href="https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/houston-tx/jesus-ornelas-12694130">the passing of Jesus Ornelas</a>, the father of my friend Rene, whom I&#8217;ve known for 28 years now. At the service outpouring of love expressed in words, music, and presence was so powerful. Alongside his biological sons, I said a few words, which are as follows.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My memories of Mr. Ornelas begin with seeing him, without fail, drive Rene halfway across town twice a day to attend HSPVA to support his artistic calling, even though his own predilection was for handicraft. The tireless devotion of a father working to create a better life for his son.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I remember fondly when we would gather at Woodlawn, three houses on the same street, his sly smile and contentment seeing all of his family so close together. Gosh, looking back, we were so poor, but only in money. We were rich in love and family. My memories of those times are not what we lacked, but the abundance of what we had together, which was time, friendship, and some pretty darn good food.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mrs. Ornelas, your love and devotion to your husband through these twenty one years of dementia is an inspiration to us all who love a partner and a testament to the human spirit. Su amor y devoción hacia su esposo a lo largo de estos veinte uno años de demencia son una inspiración para todos nosotros que amamos a una pareja y un testimonio del espíritu humano.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">To Jesse, Eddie, and Rene, I will say that how you live as men is a testament to the example your father set. I can’t imagine how proud he must be looking down at this room, seeing how he came from such challenging conditions in Mexico to build a life for you all here in Houston and see every generation grow and prosper even more. Rene, I hope <a href="https://ma.tt/chuck/">our fathers</a> are together, cracking a beer and smiling as they look down on our lives.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Though his corporal form is no longer with us, everyone here will keep him alive by remembering and embodying his best qualities. We don’t need a bracelet to remind us What Would Jesus Do in those invisible acts of service for loved ones.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">May his memory be a blessing to all of us, and let our actions, seen and unseen, honor his legacy.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 14 Jan 2026 04:30:16 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"Open Channels FM: Do the Woo Live with Matt Mullenweg Kicks Off January 14, 2026";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114095";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:86:"https://openchannels.fm/do-the-woo-live-with-matt-mullenweg-kicks-off-january-14-2026/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:167:"On January 14, 2026, at 15:00 UTC, the Do the Woo podcast returns live with hosts Katie Keith and James Kemp, featuring Matt Mullenweg discussing WooCommerce's future.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 13:55:51 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:94:"Open Channels FM: Making Accessibility Fun and Brain-Friendly for Web Developers and Designers";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114100";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:101:"https://openchannels.fm/making-accessibility-fun-and-brain-friendly-for-web-developers-and-designers/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:193:"In this episode, Anne Bovelett chats with Gehirngerecht founders Nina Jameson and Tobias Roppelt, discussing their mission to promote digital accessibility through engaging workshops and tools.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 12:22:34 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20:"Matt: Shorter Speech";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151076";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/shorter-speech/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:898:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of the great WordPress blogs is <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/">Quote Investigator.</a> In their investigation into the original source of <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/">&#8220;If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter,&#8221;</a> I came across this great variation from Woodrow Wilson on the amount of time he spent preparing speeches.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“That depends on the length of the speech,” answered the President. “If it is a ten-minute speech it takes me all of two weeks to prepare it; if it is a half-hour speech it takes me a week; if I can talk as long as I want to it requires no preparation at all. I am ready now.”</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So true.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 07:47:53 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Matt: Matt 4.2";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151053";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/matt-4-2/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5175:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s that time of the year again for a new version release. Forty-two is a fun number, of course, famous from <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Hitchhikers-Guide-Galaxy-Douglas-Adams-ebook/dp/B000XUBC2C?tag=photomatt08-20" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">The Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide to the Galaxy</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m in Miami, where I&#8217;m attending a conference by <a href="https://www.wurman.com/">Richard Saul Wurman</a>. I decided that it would be a great way to fill my brain on my birthday. Since New Year’s, I’ve been in warm climates and had lots of dips in the ocean. Had a small birthday dinner a few days ago and my friends <a href="https://x.com/photomatt/status/2010395993343410561">surprised me with a beautiful “HappyBdayMattic” cake</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This last year was particularly challenging, especially at the beginning. However, it just kept getting better, and particularly WordCamp US in August was inspiring. The warmth and support of the WordPress community pulled me out of the funk I had been in. It was also when I kicked off the habit of daily blogging, which led to 2025 being the highest number of words (34.7k) I’ve posted since 2004! I traveled 209k miles, about a third lower than last year, spending longer stretches in 45 cities and 16 countries.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of my biggest lessons of the year was learning how to ask for help. I&#8217;m usually the person others come to, and I carry a lot of responsibility on my shoulders from my friends and loved ones, and for the companies and communities I&#8217;m lucky enough to be part of. I&#8217;ve had some bad experiences asking for help in the past, as well. Now, how I see it is that it might not always work, but if you don’t ask for help, you also don’t give people the chance to step up. This year, the support of several friends got me through some really tough spots.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A joy of this year was seeing my godchildren grow up, close friends starting families, and the <a href="https://audrey.co/scholars/">Audrey Scholars</a> program. There’s a Walt Disney quote I just found out about that I love: “I do not make films primarily for children. I make them for the child in all of us, whether we be six or sixty.” Kids can&#8217;t help but remind you how important it is to maintain that childlike sense of curiosity.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A random new thing I&#8217;ve adopted this year is coconut water. I’ve been trying to hydrate with electrolytes, especially first thing in the morning, and it’s a great natural source of minerals.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My main goals this year are to keep up daily writing, post some of my archive photos, finally visit Rome and bring my family, swim more, and be the best leader for Automattic and the WordPress community through the incredible changes and opportunities of the AI era.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Even though I have several decades of history now, I find myself looking forward far more than back. Great words to live by I just learned from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Katzenberg">Jeffrey Katzenberg</a>, apparently originally from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Ivester">Doug Ivester</a>.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Never let your memories be greater than your dreams.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That said, it is a funny time to revisit <a href="https://ma.tt/2006/01/matt-22/">my original version-number birthday post, 2.2</a>, which is exactly 20 years old now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I wish everyone a wonderful 2026!</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All birthday posts: <a href="https://ma.tt/2003/01/bday/">19</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2004/01/so-im-20/">20</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2005/01/hot-barely-legal-matt/">21</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2006/01/matt-22/">22</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2007/01/twenty-three/">23</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2008/01/twenty-four/">24</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2009/01/twenty-five/">25</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2010/01/twenty-six/">26</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2011/01/twenty-seven/">27</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2012/01/twenty-eight/">28</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2013/01/twenty-nine/">29</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2014/01/matt-3-0/">30</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2015/01/thirty-one/">31</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2016/01/thirty-two/">32</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2017/01/thirty-three/">33</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2018/01/thirty-four/">34</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2019/01/thirty-five/">35</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2020/01/thirty-six/">36</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2021/01/thirty-seven/">37</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2022/01/thirty-eight/">38</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2023/01/thirty-nine/">39</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2024/01/forty/">40</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2025/01/forty-one/">41</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2026/01/matt-4-2/">42</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 11 Jan 2026 18:54:22 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:25:"Matt: Classical Accordian";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151049";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:42:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/classical-accordian/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1492:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So my new obsession is a Ukrainian-born musician, <a href="http://www.hrustevich.com/en/">Alexander Hrustevich</a>, who plays a type of chromatic Russian accordion <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(accordion)">called a Bayan</a>. He plays incredible transcriptions of classical pieces, replicating the parts of an entire orchestra with just two hands. If you&#8217;re familiar with Vivaldi&#8217;s Four Seasons, you know the Presto for Summer is one of the most challenging parts. Listen to this, it&#8217;s just a bit under three minutes.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

</div></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SE222v1eyM">Here&#8217;s the 14 minute version</a> which is beautiful to hear the dynamic range that&#8217;s possible. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;ve always loved the sound of a big pipe organ and the resonance and feel of the bayan. It is really quite remarkable, and it&#8217;s been very enjoyable having a playlist of Alexander&#8217;s music in the background as I work. This <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDXkixRjYOg">Bach-Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 is also quite good</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My 42<sup>nd</sup> birthday is tomorrow! Working on a post for y&#8217;all.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 11 Jan 2026 04:20:36 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Matt: Mad Ones";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151045";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/mad-ones/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:487:"<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The only people for me are the mad ones. The ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">— Jack Kerouac, On the Road</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 10 Jan 2026 07:57:28 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:43;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:15:"Matt: Small Hit";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151039";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/small-hit/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1146:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The NY Times has a <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/08/technology/apple-ceo-tim-cook-john-ternus.html?unlocked_article_code=1.DFA.Qm0v.SxztBxvFrAF-&amp;smid=url-share">profile of John Ternus as a possible successor to Tim Cook</a> that has a number of ridiculous lines; it&#8217;s quite bad, but this is one of my favorites:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Apple has had many small hits under Mr. Cook and continues to be one of the most profitable companies in the world. </p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Goodness! I would love to have a hit someday as the small as the ones Apple has had under Cook. <a href="https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/5/21125565/apple-watch-sales-2019-swiss-watch-market-estimates-outsold">Apple Watch sells more than the entire Swiss watch industry</a>. Airpods are the most popular headphones in the world. <a href="https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-richer-4-countries-164523140.html">Their market cap is bigger than the GDP of all but four countries in the world</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 09 Jan 2026 05:45:44 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:44;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:60:"Open Channels FM: Eight Years and 1.53 Million Seconds Later";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113805";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:67:"https://openchannels.fm/eight-years-and-1-53-million-seconds-later/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:137:"With enough words spoken to fill the Harry Potter series three times over, BobWP shares some fun numbers on this 8th year of the podcast.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 08 Jan 2026 14:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:45;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:30:"Matt: Beeper &amp;amp; Day One";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151033";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/beeper-day-one/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:447:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Pankil Shah writes <a href="https://www.makeuseof.com/use-beeper-all-in-one-messaging-app/">I replaced WhatsApp, Telegram, and Messenger with this one app</a>. (It&#8217;s <a href="https://www.beeper.com/">Beeper</a>.) And <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-journaling-apps/">Wirecutter picks the 3 best journaling apps of 2026</a>. (It&#8217;s <a href="https://dayoneapp.com/">Day One</a>.)</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 08 Jan 2026 05:37:01 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:46;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:111:"WPTavern: #199 – Brian Coords on WooCommerce’s Challenges and Innovations in a Changing WordPress Landscape";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=202139";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:122:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/199-brian-coords-on-woocommerces-challenges-and-innovations-in-a-changing-wordpress-landscape";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:60076:"<details>Transcript<div>
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, WooCommerce&#8217;s challenges and innovations in a changing WordPress landscape.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So on the podcast today, we have Brian Coords.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Brian has been active in the WordPress space for over a decade, starting out in agencies, building and managing websites, and is now a developer advocate at WooCommerce, bridging the gap between woo&#8217;s internal engineers and the wider developer community. His journey includes being a high school teacher, working for nonprofits, and writing for the WP Tavern before landing his role at Automatic.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you&#8217;re interested in where WooCommerce and WordPress itself are headed, this episode will help as Brian shares insights on WordPress&#8217;s evolving focus, the importance of embracing AI, and how a slower pace of change can be a strength in any open source ecosystem.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He talks about the massive rebrand at WooCommerce, the challenges and opportunities in competing with SaaS giants, and the unique developer relations role that balances his technical experience with communication skills.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We get into how the team Brian works with supports developers and agencies with documentation, office hours, and feedback loops, and how WooCommerce&#8217;s global Reach makes for a complex but thriving ecosystem.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There&#8217;s discussion about recent marketing efforts, the realities of open source support, and the surprising diversity of WooCommerce users worldwide.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Towards the end, we look ahead to what&#8217;s coming for WooCommerce, which is greater integration with block based editing in WordPress Core, major investments in AI to streamline store management, and the future landscape of online shopping.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you want to hear how WooCommerce and WordPress are responding to a rapidly changing tech environment, this episode is for you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so without further delay, I bring you Brian Coords.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I am joined on the podcast by Brian Cords. Hello Brian.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:03:09] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Hey, thank you for having me.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:03:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;re very welcome. I have a lot of respect for Brian. I&#8217;m hoping that by the end of this podcast you also have a lot of respect for Brian.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Brian has been kind of part of my browsing on the internet and WordPress journey, I want to say, for five or six years, something along those lines, I&#8217;ve known about you and followed your stuff. Pretty much everything that you&#8217;ve done. I&#8217;m really pleased that you&#8217;ve come on the podcast to talk to me today about WooCommerce.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Those people that don&#8217;t know Brian, I&#8217;m going to give you an opportunity just to introduce yourself. So would you mind, I know it&#8217;s a banal question, but little potted bio, couple of minutes about your WordPress journey, or you can talk about the guitars in the background if you prefer.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:03:47] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, nobody wants to hear me talk about or play a guitar.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yeah, so I&#8217;m Brian. I&#8217;m a developer advocate at WooCommerce, so I work on sort of the community side, bridging the gap between the community of developers that build on top of WooCommerce or build stores with WooCommerce, and then our internal engineers and make sure that communication channel stays open.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But before that, I spent probably 10 years working at a WordPress agency. So building sites, managing team of developers, doing all the kind of work that a WordPress agency does and sort of lived through that time from early page builders all the way until the last few years in the rise of the block editor. So I kind of have that personal experience of what it&#8217;s like just selling WordPress websites for a living.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And before that, my career went through a whole bunch of different places. Was a high school teacher, worked at nonprofit, all sorts of different things. So happy to be at Automattic, where I get to sort of teach, sort of build websites and just hang out with people.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:04:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I had no idea that you were a high school teacher. I have enormous respect for anybody who takes on a role in public education. So that&#8217;s interesting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So I&#8217;m going to segue a little bit. This question&#8217;s just occurred to me from everything that you&#8217;ve just said, given that you&#8217;ve been in the space of WordPress for the last 10 years, more.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So it&#8217;s a bit of a peculiar one, but are you as excited about it as a project as you were, let&#8217;s say, 10 years ago? Do you still think that it&#8217;s got the future that you probably thought it had a decade ago?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:05:13] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean that&#8217;s a good question. I would say overall, yes, I am excited about it. I think that if there&#8217;s any concerns about WordPress or things to be not excited or scared about, it has nothing to do with WordPress and has everything to do with the internet as we know it, and AI and everything changing and economics and all these other sorts of things.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The project itself, it seems to, I would say over the last year, really narrowed its focus on what it thinks its role is. And I think it&#8217;s adopted the AI change really well, and that&#8217;s made me very excited. I think it understands, you know, I think some of the things about WordPress is sometimes the day to day, you feel like the decisions are a little confusing, but if you look at it over the long term, it&#8217;s half the internet. So clearly the decisions tend to work out in the long run. So I think I still have faith in the project.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:06:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I find that the slow pace of change is actually one of its greatest strengths, but it takes an awful lot of mulling it over and sitting down and being calm with yourself to think, why hasn&#8217;t it got all these features? Why is it not keeping track of this, that, and the other thing that&#8217;s going on on the internet? But broadly, when you look back at any 2, 3, 4, 5 year period, I think usually that was the right decision, although it feels like it might not have been the right decision when that moment is passing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:06:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, there&#8217;s a lot of people who look at a lot of decisions, like say the block editor and they say, well, why didn&#8217;t they just take Elementor and stick that in Core and stuff, you know? Regardless of the fact that Elementor is a successful business that probably doesn&#8217;t want their software stolen and taken into Core. But I think if you look at it now you, a lot of those decisions would&#8217;ve seemed a little crazy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And the fact that it doesn&#8217;t throw everything and that it just throws the kind of basic foundational layer, and then it allows something like Elementor or any of these other page builders to be successful businesses and do their thing. The fact that it empowers that to exist, or it empowers all the other builders to exist, or it empowers WooCommerce or all these other plugins to exist, is a testament to the fact that it didn&#8217;t try to be everything to everyone, and it just kind of stayed in its lane as a foundational layer. And so I think it&#8217;s, it doesn&#8217;t feel like it&#8217;s doing that much, but it&#8217;s working out well for everyone in the ecosystem.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:07:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We don&#8217;t want to get into this, in fact, I&#8217;m going to insist that we don&#8217;t get into this. But I think it is a really interesting time with the tsunami of things that are going on with AI to see how a CMS can cope with the future with AI as a possible tool to do everything. To do every single thing that would be required in building a website. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see how the project goes.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And, you know, there&#8217;s a lot going on there, and I think this is one of those moments where we have to just sort of sit down and be calm and see what the teams are doing and just have faith. I think at least that&#8217;s my position anyway. So you don&#8217;t have to respond to that if you don&#8217;t want to.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:08:00] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;m just overwhelmed by AI sometimes on my day-to-day work. And so I do have to remind myself the only thing you can do is sit and go slow and just see what happens, because I don&#8217;t think we can predict it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:08:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, I think you would be right. So when you joined Automattic, how long ago was that now? Roughly.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:08:16] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Almost a year. Early this year.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:08:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Did you have intuitions at that point that WooCommerce was where you were going to end up? Was that where you were heading or is that just sort of serendipity?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:08:26] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No, well, not really. When I first started, I kind of was all over the place. I was here at WP Tavern for a few weeks as part of that trial writing project. I did some work with wordpress.com and kind of got to see behind the scenes of that, and I had friends at all different parts of the company.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">What I knew that I wanted to do was developer advocacy or what some people call developer relations. I knew that that&#8217;s where the role that I wanted, but I don&#8217;t think I would&#8217;ve thought of Woo. But then when the opportunity came up, there was a lot that I really liked about WooCommerce that I thought it had such a strong idea of what the product is, who the customers are. They had just done that rebrand where they had the new logo and the new colours and the new design. It felt like the whole company was kind of just doing really cool things.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So once the opportunity came up, I&#8217;ll be honest, I didn&#8217;t build a lot of WooCommerce stores before I joined. So other than being kind of afraid of learning all of this stuff it was, definitely it made sense once the opportunity came up.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:09:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. With the sort of WooCommerce side of things, are you happy with that move? You know, you&#8217;ve got your feet onto the table now and you feel that&#8217;s where you&#8217;re going to stay, I guess, for the near future.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:09:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, definitely. What&#8217;s interesting about Automattic is over the last year, since I joined it&#8217;s been kind of a turbulent year at the company, but one of the things they&#8217;ve been really trying to do is centralise things and be more consistent.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So in WooCommerce, there&#8217;s a lot of stuff that WooCommerce would go off and do, and it would be kind of different from say, Core WordPress or wordpress.com or WordPress VIP, or all these different kind of parts of WordPress inside of Automattic.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And over the last year, they&#8217;ve tried to kind of centralise and say, why do we have three different plugins that are doing similar things. Or why can&#8217;t we streamline all of this or have everybody working on the same stuff. So WooCommerce has been doing a lot of work really towards Core WordPress, and making the Core WordPress experience better so that WooCommerce can use those tools instead of doing it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So in a weird way, I&#8217;ve actually gotten to collaborate a lot more with some of the other sides of the company and people who do this job but are not in WooCommerce. There&#8217;s a whole team that has people like, let&#8217;s see, Ryan Welcher, Justin Tadlock, Jonathan Bossenger, that whole group. So it&#8217;s kind of nice. We&#8217;re in our little Woo bubble too, but then I get to work with them and learn from them, and work on Core WordPress too. So it&#8217;s kind of, it&#8217;s been nice. We&#8217;ve kind of brought everyone a little closer, I think.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:10:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is kind of interesting over the last 18 months or so, having spoken to quite a few Automatticians, it does feel like the landscape inside the company has changed. I don&#8217;t think we need to go into that, but it is interesting you saying that, because feels there was some realignment and moving around, and decisions about which teams were going to collaborate more with which teams. And that seems like what you are saying as well, so there we go.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So on the WooCommerce side of things, you mentioned that you are a developer, well, you said developer advocate, developer relations, kind of the same term really. For anybody listening to this who doesn&#8217;t know what that is, basically, what is the job contract that you&#8217;ve got there? What is your role?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:11:19] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, so we cover a few different things. From a high level, it really is, we&#8217;re there to help developers inside the company know what developers outside the company are doing and vice versa. So if you&#8217;re building stores with WooCommerce or you&#8217;re building extensions to sell in the marketplace, you know, like plugins that add-on to WooCommerce, or you&#8217;re working at one of our partner companies like Stripe and Google and Snapchat and Reddit and all these companies that integrate with WooCommerce, our job is to make sure that you have access to good documentation and good examples.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We make sure that when a new version of WooCommerce comes out, which is every five weeks, that we publish all the release notes, and make sure that that information is, you know what&#8217;s coming, what&#8217;s changing, what&#8217;s different. We do some video content, we do some office hours hangouts in a community Slack, we keep an eye on the repo for community contributions. So it&#8217;s a lot of different things, but it&#8217;s really just, at the end of the day like, hey, does this help developers on either side of the wall move forward basically?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:12:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you have to be technical in order to carry out your role, or would there be any scope for somebody in your position to be non-technical? Let&#8217;s say, you&#8217;re a marketing person or something like that. Is there any aspect of that to it? Or is everybody doing your kind of role a technical person with a background in coding and what have you?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:12:37] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> It&#8217;s a unique role and it&#8217;s kind of a long debate inside of the developer relations community is, does this team go in an engineering department or does it go in the marketing department?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So for example, at Automattic there is another developer relations team that handles a lot of that WordPress Core stuff that I was talking about, and they&#8217;re kind of a little more attached to engineering.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For our team, we&#8217;re part of the WooCommerce marketing department. So of course that&#8217;s going to change a little bit of what we work on, how our decisions are made, that sort of stuff. I don&#8217;t think it changes that much, and in some ways it gives us access to a lot of cool stuff like their design team, which is really nice to have.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So it goes both ways, but you really have to be a unique person where you have to be a good communicator, and you have to have some amount of technical experience. You kind of really need both, because at the end of the day we look at a new version of WooCommerce and it&#8217;s, oh, we changed this API and it&#8217;s going to affect developers in this way. It&#8217;s like, I need to be able to communicate that. I need to be able to understand it. I need to be able to know what the implications of that are. So it&#8217;s kind of both.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:13:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you produce this content in multiple languages or is it kind of English first and then it gets translated in some other department, or indeed does it get translated into another language, do you know?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:13:45] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No, I think pretty much English first. There is a lot of stuff that is translated for, I would say on the, what we call like the merchant side, sort of like the user side. So if you&#8217;re looking for extensions in the marketplace, that&#8217;s available in a lot of different languages. The software itself is translated, but the developer stuff is pretty much English only. Because we&#8217;re a really small team. Like when we look at, there&#8217;s only, at any time, three or four of us working on this for software that&#8217;s on whatever, 8% of the internet, so English only for now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:14:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, the reason I ask, maybe you were present at State of the Word where Matt went through a bunch of statistics. And it was curious to see, for the first time, so WordPress more broadly, not WooCommerce specifically, but WordPress more broadly is now used on non-English websites more than it is on English websites. And so if we&#8217;d have had this interview a week ago, that question probably would not have arisen.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But I&#8217;m guessing that WooCommerce goes along for the ride there. I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s not just on English speaking websites, I&#8217;m guessing WooCommerce is just literally in more or less every part of the world, in every locale and every jurisdiction. There are people who are using your code, but probably not speaking English.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:14:52] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> That&#8217;s definitely the case. So we have a free Slack, that&#8217;s the WooCommerce Community Slack, and it&#8217;s more than 30,000 people in there. It&#8217;s all over. You can definitely tell that people are coming from all over the world.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of the weird things about e-commerce is it&#8217;s very geographically based because the currency matters. The payment provider that handles the payments matters. The shipping options matter. So there are certain places where you can only use WooCommerce because you want to use the custom bank payment provider that&#8217;s only in this one country, that sort of stuff.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So because of how diverse the types of integrations you would need, yeah, WooCommerce is very global. That was one of the things that really surprised me was finding out that, oh yeah, there&#8217;s payment providers you&#8217;ve never heard of, and banks you&#8217;ve never heard of, and shipping companies you&#8217;ve never heard of and they need to integrate.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:15:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And tax. So much tax, I&#8217;m sure.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:15:43] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Oh my, yeah.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:15:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m sure it gets brutal. I don&#8217;t know exactly when the time was, but it feels like about, I&#8217;m going to say 18 months or something, when Woo underwent a fairly significant rebranding. So from a marketing point of view, the logo changed, the colour palette changed, the website changed.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I didn&#8217;t really notice until that moment when it did change that it needed to have changed, if you know what I mean? It just always looked fine to me. But the moment it changed, I kind of got a sense that, oh, okay, this is real now. We&#8217;ve kind of identified that there are these SaaS players, so you know, we don&#8217;t need to name them, we all know who they are, where you pay your monthly fee and you get a shop and yada, yada, yada. But I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s a part of the roadmap.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And summing it up as more serious, obviously that&#8217;s trivial and a bit, really not the right term, but do you know what I mean? It feels like WooCommerce has, I don&#8217;t know, grown up a little bit over the last 18 months and realises the, I don&#8217;t want to use the word fight, but I&#8217;m going to, the fight that it&#8217;s in with the SaaS players.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:16:41] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I think that was the intention of that rebrand. So I think the goal was to go from saying, hey, we&#8217;re a WordPress plugin that lets you sell things. To saying, we&#8217;re an e-commerce solution, and we happen to run on WordPress. It&#8217;s kind of just a different framing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But one of the big things is a huge investment in marketing. And so the marketing team has gotten really big. We have a pretty killer CMO. There&#8217;s a ton of investment into different types of ads and demand generation and leads and all this stuff that I kind of don&#8217;t understand, a lot of like acronyms that are thrown around that I don&#8217;t fully track. But it&#8217;s a huge investment to basically reposition WooCommerce as something that feels a bit more modern and, not a SaaS, but kind of can sit there next to the SaaS. So when a company is looking at the options and they&#8217;re saying, oh, do we want to use Magento or BigCommerce or Shopify or WooCommerce, we look like we belong there, and it looks like it&#8217;s an option.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:17:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of curious that there&#8217;s, real money has to be spent on this endeavor because, I was in London just a few weeks ago and I walked onto the Tube, you know, the underground train network. And the platform that I was on, the first thing that I saw when I walked onto the platform was this huge ad for Shopify. And then I looked left and I looked right and it was Shopify ads all the way down. They&#8217;d obviously, I mean I can only imagine how expensive that real estate is.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But the same thing would be true on radio, on TV, online, on print. These companies have gigantic, I mean truly eye watering budgets. And I don&#8217;t know if the WooCommerce side has to be a bit more guerrilla or if you also have a fairly gigantic budget. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re able to peel any of that back. It sounds like marketing&#8217;s not really your thing, but maybe there&#8217;s bit of interest there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:18:25] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean since we&#8217;re in the team, we see a lot of it. We did an event earlier this year where our marketing team walked through some of this stuff, so I can maybe give you a link to put in the show notes. We kind of wrote it, did a write up about that very concept. Because we get asked that a lot, why am I seeing Squarespace and Shopify ads everywhere? And it&#8217;s, you know, obviously if you look at the size of the companies, it&#8217;s a fact, like a whole factor difference, like we&#8217;re not anywhere near the size of those companies.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And part of the issue is that you don&#8217;t just go to woocommerce.com and hand us money, you know? The Core plugin is free so the way we monetise is a lot different. You can run it anywhere. You can, a lot of people that run WooCommerce, they&#8217;re not paying us in any way because they&#8217;re using their own payment providers and those sorts of things.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So it is definitely more of a challenge. But this past year, that&#8217;s why the rebrand started, that&#8217;s why they&#8217;ve been investing in it. And it&#8217;s been kind of cool. There&#8217;s a lot of podcast ads that we&#8217;ve been running and LinkedIn ads and all these sorts of things. And part of the issue too is that our target market is just much more narrowly defined, and so WooCommerce is much more customisable. It&#8217;s extensible. You can do whatever you want with it. And that&#8217;s just a different value proposition then you would say to somebody who just wants the easy SaaS solution.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So it&#8217;s a lot of things, but it&#8217;s kind of just knowing who we want and targeting directly to them. And so you probably won&#8217;t see ads on the Tube at any time, but for certain areas you&#8217;re going to start seeing really targeted ads for people at the places that would actually really benefit from having WooCommerce.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:19:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That was the thought that I had about seeing the Shopify, in this case, ad on the London underground was just how much the audience, the eyeballs that were actually staring at that had no interest in it at all. And so almost like the bottomless pit of money that they must have to throw at these things. And obviously it sounds like you are targeting people.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Are you kind of like riding on the coattails of WordPress in general? In other words, are you targeting existing WordPress users in the hope that they&#8217;ll think, okay, yeah, we&#8217;ve got a WordPress site, now it&#8217;s time to upgrade to WooCommerce, or is it a bit more scatter gone, you need a website, you need e-commerce, we&#8217;re your solution?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:20:26] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean that&#8217;s an interesting question because I think when WordPress was growing, it was a lot easier to target inside of WordPress, and I think now we&#8217;re seeing all the big companies reevaluate that. So I would say the ads that I see a lot are, you know, Hostinger, Elementor, wordpress.com. And I think a lot of them are realising now, you know, we need to target outside.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So for example, WooCommerce this year, we go to all the WordCamps, but we started going to e-commerce expos that are trade shows that are not anything to do with WordPress. It&#8217;s just for people in the commerce industry and partnering with companies that are in the marketing and commerce side. And so, yeah, it really is about branching out and finding those new areas.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I think all WordPress companies are going to kind of have to start facing that as well because WordPress is 43% of the web. It&#8217;s like, how much bigger realistically can you get, once we pass 50%? I mean that&#8217;s, it&#8217;s pretty hard to grow at that point.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:21:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Did you attend any of those events? The sort of expos for e-commerce more generally?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:21:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:21:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I was going to follow up with a question about whether or not there was brand recognition. At those events, if you&#8217;ve got a WooCommerce stall, I was curious as to know what proportion of the public would walk past a WooCommerce sign and go, yeah, yeah, I know what that is, I&#8217;ve got complete familiarity with it. I feel like some of the SaaS ones, maybe they&#8217;ve done that job so well that that brand recognition is there, but maybe that work still needs to be done on the Woo side, I&#8217;m not sure.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:21:49] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> There&#8217;s definitely not going to be the same level of brand awareness. I think, like you said, like guerrilla marketing is definitely part of it. One of the things they do at these is they&#8217;ll find a local store that uses Woo and use them for swag. So they&#8217;ll get really good swag. They did like homemade, like embroidery things and all this sort of stuff. And so they end up getting very popular because of how cool the swag is, and how meaningful it is, and it supports a local merchant. But yeah, it&#8217;s a big battle, you know, to raise that brand awareness.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:22:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, let&#8217;s just turn a bit more to your Dev Rel stuff. And you were saying that, well, I don&#8217;t need to repeat what you said. You said a little while ago, who it is that you are interfacing with out in the real world.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">How does that work? Like, do you just sort of put content out there and tutorials out there and videos out there and change logs out there, and kind of hope that the people that need it get to see it somehow? Or is there more of an endeavor of, I don&#8217;t know, providing the bat phone, for want of a better word, to agencies and people so that they can communicate directly with you? How does that whole thing work?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:22:48] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, so it&#8217;s interesting because there&#8217;s definitely different audiences that we have. So we have developers who are building extensions and are, you know, they&#8217;re selling WooCommerce plugins basically. And so we have them that we need to communicate with. And then we have the agencies and the agencies are building WooCommerce stores for people. So they&#8217;re setting up WooCommerce.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And those two audiences, they both need some of the same information, but they also need a lot of different information. And so we&#8217;ve kind of seen a lot of change over the last year.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Automattic has launched a program called Automattic for Agencies. I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;ve seen this. It&#8217;s kind of like an agency program where you sign up and you get access to extensions, you can get affiliate fees, you can get kickbacks on payments, volume, all that sort of stuff.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So that side has really, sort of owned the agency space. And so what&#8217;s nice is we can go to them with any new information. We could say, hey, just pass this along to your audience in your next newsletter, that sort of thing. But really, if we want to have the conversations, I would say the Slack is the most common and we never lack for feedback. We get plenty of feedback. We do a monthly office hours in Slack or sometimes on Zoom, where developers will come and share their questions, that sort of thing. So we get tons of feedback. But yeah, it&#8217;s really just about being present there, being present on Twitter. We&#8217;re ramping up YouTube, because YouTube&#8217;s really important right now. And we&#8217;re just, like I said, small team and trying to hit all of those different content areas.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:24:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> My sort of follow up question there really was going to be something about shouting into the void and I wondered if that, it was in fact what was happening. But it sounds from what you are saying is if, no, there is an actual loop there. You put stuff out and you get feedback. I mean I&#8217;m guessing, from the sounds of it, there&#8217;s maybe more feedback than you can actually cope with, which is intriguing. I had an intuition that would be the other way around.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:24:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean it definitely depends on, sometimes you get feedback that&#8217;s kind of the same. We know what people want, and we&#8217;re trying to work as fast as we can to make the changes that developers and the community want. And sometimes you put out a feature and it doesn&#8217;t resonate.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But generally when we do calls for testing of a new feature we&#8217;ll post, all right, we have a new feature coming, it&#8217;s in experimental mode, here&#8217;s how to turn it on and then let us know if it&#8217;s working for you, if it&#8217;s working with your plugin and stuff. We definitely have a pretty healthy group that will take the time to contribute back, let us know if things are working. I mean it&#8217;s an open source project. We get community pull requests. We get people, they need a feature, they build it and submit it and, you know, hopefully we merge it. And so the feedback loop is definitely there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But if you&#8217;re, the thing that I&#8217;ve learned about WordPress is that I think it&#8217;s like an iceberg and like 90% of the WordPress community, they&#8217;re not really listening to WordPress content, and they&#8217;re not listening, they&#8217;re not even tracking WordPress in general. And so I think there&#8217;s probably a much broader community that we&#8217;re not getting access to, and they&#8217;re just living their daily lives and just building stores and stuff. And so I would love to find more of those groups. I think Facebook is probably a place that we haven&#8217;t even touched yet, and I&#8217;m sure a lot of them are there. There&#8217;s definitely work to be done there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:25:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think that was maybe the piece that I was thinking. Is that Woo is the biggest solution out there. If memory serves, Woo is the biggest e-commerce platform out there. It kind of dwarfs all the others. I don&#8217;t even know if WooCommerce is bigger than the rest of them combined but, you know, it&#8217;s on that kind of level.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And yet, if you were to have a, I don&#8217;t know, a Shopify store or something, there is probably like a little submit feedback button in the UI somewhere, and you can talk to the support representatives, and they&#8217;ll have the answer specifically because they know exactly what the platform does.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But the jigsaw puzzle over on the Woo side is, yeah, it must be much more messy, much more kind of difficult to wrangle everything. You know, you&#8217;ve got people, end users who are using WooCommerce. You&#8217;ve got developers who are building plugins. You&#8217;ve got agencies who are building on behalf of clients. You&#8217;ve got people who are building rival things so you&#8217;re in direct competition with people in the plugin space who are building rivals to WooCommerce. It&#8217;s just, well, messy. But that&#8217;s open source, right?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:26:44] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I mean that&#8217;s exactly what it is. You know, we have, you have WooCommerce support, right? And our support team is really great. Every time I go to a conference and one of our support engineers is there, I&#8217;m always pointing to them to answer all the questions because they know the product so deeply.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But if you imagine the, you know, most WooCommerce stores will come to us for support, but there&#8217;s no financial relationship. If they&#8217;re not using our hosting company or they&#8217;re not using Woo Payments, or they&#8217;re not using extensions that they bought in the marketplace, maybe they bought their extensions just off the internet or something, there&#8217;s a good chance they might not be paying us any money at all. And yet, you know, we&#8217;re going to support them and make sure that they&#8217;re having a good experience, because that&#8217;s kind of the goal of it. So it&#8217;s definitely a bit of the Wild West out there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:27:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There must be some kind of strange tension there as well. I mean, you&#8217;ve described it very eloquently and I think you&#8217;ve stepped around that beautifully, but that is a peculiar thing, isn&#8217;t it, that you would not have to deal with elsewhere? The fact that you may very well be dealing with rivals. You may well be dealing with people who are using up your time, but like you said, they have no relationship with you financially at all, but they built something, third party thing on top of the WooCommerce ecosystem, and I guess that&#8217;s just the broader philanthropic goal of something like WooCommerce. You&#8217;ve just got to step up and be there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:28:00] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean I think wordpress.com probably has a lot of the same things because if you Google WordPress, you know, you&#8217;re probably going to end up on wordpress.com, even if you&#8217;re not their customer.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the flip side though, you know, the benefit of being open source is that, like I said, we get community contributions. We get a lot of eyes on the software. A lot of people, they give us feedback, they give us code, they give us all sorts of things. So it is a bit of a trade off.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But I think it&#8217;s kind of worth it for the software to just exist freely and for everybody who runs on it, to always kind of know deep down that they own their store and they can do whatever they want with it, and they can put it wherever they want, and Automattic or WordPress or WooCommerce is never really going to take that away from them or take them down, you know?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:28:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;d be curious to know what proportion of Woo kind of props up the broader WordPress project, if you know what I mean? I don&#8217;t think we need to go into that, and I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s any data out there anywhere, but there must be a lot of money sloshing around inside the WooCommerce ecosystem. It&#8217;d be interesting to know what proportion the broader WordPress ecosystem was was made up of just Woo stuff. That&#8217;d be an interesting thing to dig into.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:29:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> When I worked at an agency, the kind of rule was if you wanted to make money making websites, you did websites that made money. So e-commerce was a big part. People, you know, their website&#8217;s more critical to their business, so they&#8217;re going to be buying more plugins, they&#8217;re going to be paying more developers, they&#8217;re going to be using more tools. So I think that&#8217;s part of it. E-commerce isn&#8217;t the only way websites make money. There&#8217;s definitely a lot of other things, big publishers and that sort of stuff. But yeah, it&#8217;s definitely a big part of the community.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:29:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, big and not going anywhere. Speaking of going places though, what&#8217;s coming up in the near future? So when we&#8217;re recording this, it&#8217;s kind of the middle of December. I imagine this episode will hit in the beginning of 2026 at some point. Roughly around that kind of time, what&#8217;s the thinking? What are the, some of the top level items that people may not know about? What&#8217;s the stuff that you&#8217;re working on? Roadmap stuff, I guess.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:29:46] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I would say the big things that I&#8217;ve seen that are really the big focus right now is, number one is really making WooCommerce closer to WordPress Core, which means making WordPress Core a little better. So WooCommerce has been pretty ahead of the curve of transitioning to blocks, using block templates and block based everything. So, I mean you can do your whole WooCommerce store in the block editor, which gives you a lot of kind of design freedom. But that means if we need something better in the block editor, we&#8217;ve got to commit that up to the block editor and make Gutenberg better. So there&#8217;s a lot of work to improve a lot of stuff inside of Gutenberg so that your WooCommerce experience is better.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So that&#8217;s been a lot of the focus. And so we&#8217;re, there&#8217;s a lot of cool stuff coming around just new blocks, new block designs, patterns, things you can do to really customise the visual aspects of your store. And then the second big thing, I think that is taking up everybody&#8217;s mental space is AI. You can&#8217;t not talk about it. So it&#8217;s, that&#8217;s the other piece.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:30:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, despite the fact that it consumes all the air in the room, it is so fascinating. Do you have any insight into some of the things that may be on the agenda for a WooCommerce store owner in the near future? The kind of things that you are thinking of. Even if they&#8217;re just aspirational for a WooCommerce store owner. I&#8217;d be curious to hear your thoughts on that.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:31:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I think there&#8217;s two different aspects of it that are really going to be important. One is managing your store. So we have right now in beta what&#8217;s called an MCP server in Woo. And what it basically lets you do is open up, you know, ChatGPT or Claude or something and say, log into my WooCommerce store and update all my products, put them on sale, change out the pictures, write better copy for them. It kind of lets AI log into your store and do things for you.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so that&#8217;s in beta right now, and it&#8217;s pretty cool. I&#8217;ve been using it. It&#8217;s pretty neat. I&#8217;ve been setting up some demo stores for people, and I just go, all right, log in and make me, you know, 50 fake sweaters with a nice description in different colours. And it does it. It&#8217;s kind of mind blowing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:31:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you trust it at this point? And I don&#8217;t mean, you know, the broader kind of debate about AI and whether it&#8217;s trustworthy. I mean, in terms of the store, you know, do you trust it to update all of the particular product lines and what have you, or update the images? Do you feel that if you&#8217;ve given that prompt, you can sort of sit back and go, okay, that is definitely being done?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:32:02] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I haven&#8217;t done it on a live site, I will say. The nice thing too is you can have it ask you for permission every single time, and you can kind of see what it&#8217;s going to do. That obviously kind of ruins the whole efficiency part of it, but it can do that. So I think it&#8217;s early days.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But I do think, once you start interacting where you don&#8217;t have to actually log in and click a bunch of buttons, and you can just tell your computer what you want it to do, I think it&#8217;s going to be hard to come back from that. I think people are going to start expecting it. But I, yeah that&#8217;s, I mean we&#8217;re not doing that on the live, on any live sites, I hope not.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:32:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So that was half of it by the sounds of it. That was one of the threads. What was the other one?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:32:35] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> The other one, I think is about how people are going to be shopping in the future. And I think showing up, obviously all these chat companies, they need to make money, and we know that they&#8217;re going to start showing ads and they&#8217;re going to start wanting to do the same thing when you go to Google, and you look up something and it gives you some shopping recommendations and shows you some products you might want to buy and some ads. You know, we&#8217;re going to start seeing that in our chat bots and stuff.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so I think it&#8217;s going to be important for people that have WooCommerce stores, they want their products to show up there, and they want their ads to show up there, and they want to make sure that people who are using AI to get product recommendations, which my wife does all the time, that they&#8217;re going to show up there. So I think that&#8217;s the other half of it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:33:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Do you know it&#8217;s really curious, the whole, what we might have called SEO, which is fast giving way, I think, to AI. It&#8217;s kind of curious. I think there&#8217;s like a whole section where the discovery of the website is going to be everything. So an example might be apparel. I don&#8217;t suppose anybody&#8217;s just going to buy a blouse or a shirt based upon some text that they saw in a chat bot, but getting to that page and saying, find me, locally to me, find me a place which sells, I don&#8217;t know, affordable shirts for work, or something along those lines. And have a recommendation, which gets you to the WooCommerce store.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But for more utilitarian things, just the stuff that you don&#8217;t really care about like, I want to buy a bunch of nuts and bolts, or hammers, or spanners, or whatever it may be, I feel like there&#8217;ll be a point where the store itself, obviously all of that commerce will take place in the store, but it will be invisible to you as a user. You&#8217;ll just tell the AI, buy these things, I need 50, or even just repeat the order from last month for these things, and it&#8217;ll just magically happen in the background. You&#8217;ll get a receipt via email, and WooCommerce will have handled it. The site will have been notified in some way, but you&#8217;ll have had no interaction. So it&#8217;s kind of scary, but interesting at the same time.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:34:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I think one of the thing, I think Google&#8217;s the best example because I think WordPress and Google have this really symbiotic relationship because we make the websites and they provide the traffic. And I think it&#8217;s been good for both of them. They want a bunch of websites to send people to, and we want them sending people to our websites. And so I think Google&#8217;s a great example.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">But they&#8217;ve had product recommendations that you can connect to your WooCommerce store, you know, for a while now. It&#8217;s kind of in some ways not really that different from just Googling something. Google shows you some products and then you click through and you buy it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If it becomes that seamless where you don&#8217;t even have to realise you&#8217;re going to a website, which I think is possible, I also wonder, will people want to do that? Will they feel as trustworthy? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, that is probably going to be the case.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And so that&#8217;s going to require a lot of these, the discussion&#8217;s already happening. They have these payment protocols and things, and we&#8217;re starting to see the very beginning of it. So it&#8217;s kind of interesting to be inside of WooCommerce because the companies that do all this stuff, the Stripes and the PayPals and the Googles and stuff, these are partners that they work closely with. And you get to see a little behind the scenes of them trying to figure this out in real time, you know?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:35:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it kind of speaks to trust really, doesn&#8217;t it? So the repeat order thing through a ChatGPT style interface or whatever that looks like in the future, be it voice or speaking to a camera or whatever it may be, I could totally see myself ordering the, I don&#8217;t know, the groceries or the toothpaste or whatever it is that, I really don&#8217;t need to see that thing. I don&#8217;t need to go to a shopping checkout. I just need to know that my next pack of toothpaste is going to arrive reliably tomorrow morning. That&#8217;s all I need to know. I feel like there is, there&#8217;s a there there, if you know what I mean? Despite the fact that we&#8217;re so wedded to this interface of, go to the website, look at the pictures, click the cart number, click how many you want, go to the cart, proceed with the checkout, dah, dah, dah. Most of that is going to be obsolete for the utilitarian stuff, I think. I don&#8217;t know. We&#8217;ll see.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:36:15] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I feel like Amazon&#8217;s been trying that for a while, but I still have to check it because I feel like we return 30% of the things we buy at Amazon. It comes, it&#8217;s the wrong size, it doesn&#8217;t look anything like the picture, all that sort of stuff. Hopefully those problems still get solved, before we get to the point where I&#8217;m not even going to look at what I ordered. I think we still have a lot of time there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:36:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, so even if that interface isn&#8217;t quite as radical as I just suggested, but even if there&#8217;s like a back and forth between the AI and the website. I don&#8217;t know, I ask for a particular thing, and then the chat interface or whatever it may be shows me a picture from the website or something along those lines. This whole scraping of the website and surfacing the content of the website, and then I can make those decisions based upon what I see. Maybe it&#8217;ll be a bit more back and forward, and far less of the AI, and more of the AI meets human kind of interface.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:37:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, and I think a lot of it is, it&#8217;ll feel like magic to the end user with an AI, but really it&#8217;s just going to be a ton of code and protocols and extensions and things. Under the hood, that&#8217;s going to be a ton of manual work, getting all that stuff there. But I think with WooCommerce especially, most of the Woo stores I come across, they&#8217;re very weird, I guess is the best way to put it. They&#8217;re unique products, you know? They&#8217;re often not selling the toothpaste and that sort of stuff. Or if they are, they&#8217;re selling the very interesting toothpaste that you can only buy from this one company.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So I think that&#8217;s what&#8217;s fun about it, is I think it&#8217;ll really be for people looking for those weird, unique products, and the kind of stuff you&#8217;re not going to get on Amazon or you&#8217;re not going to get on a basic walmart.com or something. So yeah, I think it&#8217;ll be interesting to see where this goes.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:37:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you know if Automattic, or WordPress more generally, do you know if it&#8217;s investing anything in its own AI? Everything at the moment, all the oxygen seems to be being consumed by the, let&#8217;s say, four big players that we&#8217;ve all heard of. We don&#8217;t need to name the names, we all know who they are. But it&#8217;d be curious as to whether a company obviously deeply rooted in tech, like Automattic is inventing, creating those kind of things. That&#8217;d be a curious shift.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:38:07] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean you can see it already. Telex is a product that&#8217;s come out from Automattic. It lets you build blocks. They have a AI site builder. If you go to wordpress.com, a good amount of people are actually, the first thing they do is use this AI site builder that gets you kind of from zero to like a pretty decent starting site. And then you can go in and the block editor and customise everything.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Is Automattic training their own models and stuff? I don&#8217;t think so, or at least I don&#8217;t know. But, I mean there&#8217;s a bunch of stuff happening, that&#8217;s the public facing stuff, which is building websites. There&#8217;s stuff around WooCommerce, there&#8217;s stuff around support. Our support is very heavily leaned into AI and it&#8217;s actually very good. There&#8217;s all sorts of these other places.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">And then there&#8217;s a ton of stuff internally in the company that we have because, you know, when you work with a thousand people, there&#8217;s a lot of information there. And so we have internal stuff that&#8217;s kind of like search through all of our, you know, internal dialogue and find this conversation and summarise it for me. And so it&#8217;s all there. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see which ones end up becoming good products.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:39:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, it sounds like exciting times. It sounds like you&#8217;ve landed in the right part of Automattic for you at least anyway. Yeah, fascinating times. The year 2026 for e-commerce, and WooCommerce more specifically, looks very, very bright.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Can we just ask you, before we go, where would be the best place to find you if anybody wants to reach out and say hi?</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:39:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, definitely. So if you are interested in WooCommerce, you can go to developer.woo.com. That&#8217;s kind of our developer blog and it has, it&#8217;ll take you to like the docs, it&#8217;ll take you to the community Slack, it&#8217;ll take you to our email newsletter and all that sort of stuff. That&#8217;s developer.woo.com.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For me, it&#8217;s my name, briancoords.com, and I&#8217;m mostly active on Twitter and YouTube these days. I tried all the other social networks, but everyone in WordPress stays on Twitter, so that&#8217;s where I&#8217;ll be for the foreseeable future.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:39:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So Brian is, as you would imagine it&#8217;s spelled, but Coords has two O&#8217;s. So it&#8217;s C-O-O-R-D-S. I&#8217;ll put all of the links in the show notes so that anything that Brian mentioned can be found there, wptavern.com. Search for Brian&#8217;s name and you will be able to find that episode. So Brian Coords, thank you so much for chatting to me today.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">[00:40:05] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah. Thank you.</p>
</div></details>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/briancoords">Brian Coords</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Brian has been active in the WordPress space for over a decade, starting out in agencies building and managing websites, and is now a developer advocate at WooCommerce, bridging the gap between Woo’s internal engineers and the wider developer community. His journey includes being a high school teacher, working for nonprofits, and writing for the WP Tavern, before landing his role at Automattic.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you’re interested in where WooCommerce, and WordPress itself, are headed, this episode will help, as Brian shares insights on WordPress’s evolving focus, the importance of embracing AI, and how a slower pace of change can be a strength in any open source ecosystem.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">He talks about the massive rebrand at WooCommerce, the challenges and opportunities in competing with SaaS giants, and the unique developer relations role that balances his technical experience with communication skills.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We get into how the team Brian works with supports developers and agencies with documentation, office hours, and feedback loops, and how WooCommerce’s global reach makes for a complex but thriving ecosystem. There’s discussion about recent marketing efforts, the realities of open source support, and the surprising diversity of WooCommerce users worldwide.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Towards the end, we look ahead to what’s coming for WooCommerce, which is greater integration with block-based editing in WordPress Core, major investments in AI to streamline store management, and the future landscape of online shopping.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you want to hear how WooCommerce and WordPress are responding to a rapidly changing tech environment, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.briancoords.com"> briancoords.com </a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://woocommerce.com">WooCommerce</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://wordpress.org/news/2025/12/sotw-2025/"> State of the Word 2025</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://woocommerce.com/community-slack/"> WooCommerce Community Slack</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://automattic.com/for-agencies/">Automattic for Agencies</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://woocommerce.com/payments/">WooPayments</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://telex.automattic.ai"> Telex</a></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://developer.woocommerce.com">Woo Developer Blog</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 07 Jan 2026 15:09:35 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:47;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20:"Matt: Find My Update";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151027";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-update/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1244:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The best part about blogging is the comments, and after I <a href="https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-upgrade/">posted</a> &#8220;I wish that when you use Find My to find your iPhone, it would also flash the flashlight, which would be great for finding it in a bag or a dark room.&#8221; <a href="https://gravatar.com/mwenderwenmark">Michael Wender</a> and <a href="https://artiss.me/">David Artiss</a> jumped in that it&#8217;s already there!</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Apple support <a href="https://support.apple.com/guide/watch/ping-your-iphone-apddd5a326d2/watchos">says if you touch and hold it will flash the light</a>! Now I haven&#8217;t been able to get this to work yet, perhaps because when I did, I got a notice that Precision Finding, which uses ultra-wideband (UWB) frequencies to help you find your phone or Airtag, which is magical, isn&#8217;t available in all regions. I&#8217;m currently stranded in St. Martin because of airspace issues with Venezuela, and apparently, this is one of the countries, like Indonesia, where UWB doesn&#8217;t work.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Update: Hours later, the press-and-hold thing now flashes the light, so it must have been a heisenbug.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 07 Jan 2026 04:30:48 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:48;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"Open Channels FM: How to Spot a Committed Business Partner (and Avoid Red Flags)";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113510";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:85:"https://openchannels.fm/how-to-spot-a-committed-business-partner-and-avoid-red-flags/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:199:"Successful partnerships hinge on genuine commitment, proactive engagement, and collaborative effort, requiring integration across teams and mutual benefits beyond mere visibility for lasting success.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 05 Jan 2026 10:44:23 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:49;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Matt: Find My Upgrade";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151013";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-upgrade/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:192:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><br />I wish that when you use Find My to find your iPhone, it would also flash the flashlight, which would be great for finding it in a bag or a dark room. </p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 05 Jan 2026 05:58:40 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}s:4:"type";i:128;s:7:"headers";a:9:{s:6:"server";s:5:"nginx";s:4:"date";s:29:"Thu, 05 Feb 2026 10:11:55 GMT";s:12:"content-type";s:8:"text/xml";s:13:"last-modified";s:29:"Thu, 05 Feb 2026 09:45:19 GMT";s:4:"vary";s:15:"Accept-Encoding";s:15:"x-frame-options";s:10:"SAMEORIGIN";s:16:"content-encoding";s:4:"gzip";s:7:"alt-svc";s:19:"h3=":443"; ma=86400";s:4:"x-nc";s:9:"HIT ord 2";}s:5:"build";i:1760624136;s:21:"cache_expiration_time";i:1770329516;s:23:"__cache_expiration_time";i:1770329516;}